The original IDNA2003 mapping was chosen for a purpose: it allows χρήσης<span lang="grc">.gr and ΧΡΉΣΗΣ.gr</span> to both go to the same page, without requiring bundling. (Note the two different kinds of lowercase sigmas.)<br>
<br>I still think a better approach would be to retain the mapping for compatibility, but specify that when converting back from punycode, trailing sigmas be transformed into final sigmas. For example, in the address bar you could type ΧΡΉΣΗΣ.gr, and when you went to the page you'd see χρήσης<span lang="grc">.gr in the address bar.<br>
<br>The only downside I can see is that it would encourage Greek domain names to use interior hyphens where necessary to get the sigma right. So you would want to register<br><br><a href="http://xn----tlbbisas8eesdbp8a.gr">ευρείας-χρήσης.gr</a><br>
instead of<br>ευρεία</span><span lang="grc">σ</span><span lang="grc"><a href="http://xn--jxas2ajbt.gr">χρήσης.gr</a><br><br>But that's not a big downside compared with the alternatives.<br><br clear="all"></span>Mark<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 14:34, Tina Dam <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tina.dam@icann.org">tina.dam@icann.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Vaggelis,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I totally understand the frustration and concern that you are
expressing. I am wondering though if it is not better to get this corrected
now, so that the Greek script/language is functioning correctly in the
Internet/with domain names, than it is to have this half solution that really
makes things worse the larger the volume of domain names that are registered?
That is both under .GR, but also other TLDs that might introduce the Greek
characters (.CY is the most natural existing TLD that comes to mind in addition
to .GR, but off course also gTLDs, and even more importantly as we move to the
IDN TLDs).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As far as I see things this is not a matter of mapping or no
mappings, but in the case about the final sigma it is the matter of a wrong
decision being made in 2003, making </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">U+03A3 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER
SIGMA - always map into:</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">U+03C3 GREEK SMALL LETTER SIGMA
- when in fact (as you and your colleagues are well aware of and as you express
below) it often should be mapped into:</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">U+03C2 GREEK SMALL LETTER FINAL
SIGMA</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In other words, the mapping of
the Capital Sigma is not a one-to-one nor a global solution like for example
the mapping of Capital “A” to lower-case “a” is, and
hence this sigma-mapping should never have been introduced in the protocol in
the first place.</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">About solutions….I am
wondering if you are going to be at the Mexico meeting this following week and
if so, perhaps we can find a good time to chat further about it? (That would be
with my IDN hat on and ICANN hat of, since ICANN off course has nothing to do
with your policies).</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tina</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Vaggelis Segredakis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>; 'Vint Cerf'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Euripides Zervanos'; 'Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos'; 'Sotiris
Panaretou'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Esszett, Final Sigma, ZWJ and ZWNJ</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dear
Vint,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I
would love to say that we as the .gr Registry are enthusiastic about the
proposed solution (PVALID Final Sigma) but in reality we are quite skeptical. I
can clearly see the advantages of the use of a distinct final sigma. The
reality however is that the change is significant and the registry will have to
take measures to reduce the impact.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">It
will be necessary for us (and I believe anyone who uses Esszett as well) to
“map” the two versions of the domain names ourselves to overcome
the fact that browsers and software do not change overnight and IDNA2003 and
IDNA2008 are incompatible.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">In
Greek, a word that finishes with a final sigma in small characters when typed
in capital letters gets a normal capital sigma in the place of that final
sigma. Although you have prohibited Capital letters in IDNA2008 any browser
programmer will try to translate letter by letter a URL typed in capital. Most
possibly then he will translate a capital Sigma to sigma and not final sigma,
regardless of its position in the word. Why would a programmer try to learn
Greek grammar?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">For
each final sigma in a domain name, the registrant will have to register a
variant with a lower sigma in that position as well and each variant that
occurs if you put more than one final sigma in a domain name. For 2 final
sigmas you will have 4 variants. If you add to this the tonos punctuation point
issue (in capital letters it is not used and this gives us two variants for
each domain name), you end up with sixteen variants for a single domain name
with two final sigmas (two words)!</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">We
already do bundling of the domain names. We will probably do it in the future,
especially if this proposed solution moves forward. If you have any other
alternatives though that could shed some new light on these issues, this might
be a good time to start discussing them. Even if this means a best practice
document or IDNAv2_2009, anything should be open to discussion.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Best
Regards,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Vaggelis
Segredakis</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Administrator
of the .GR Top Level Domain</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Institute
of Computer Science</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Foundation
for Research and Technology - Hellas</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Tel.
+30-281-0391450</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Fax
+30-281-0391451</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Email
<a href="mailto:segred@ics.forth.gr" target="_blank">segred@ics.forth.gr</a></span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color windowtext; border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 1pt;">
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Message: 3</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:14:04 -0500</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From: Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>></span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: Esszett, Final Sigma, ZWJ and
ZWNJ</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To: Mark Davis <<a href="mailto:mark@macchiato.com" target="_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>></span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Cc: Paul Hoffman <<a href="mailto:phoffman@imc.org" target="_blank">phoffman@imc.org</a>>,
Andrew Sullivan</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<<a href="mailto:ajs@shinkuro.com" target="_blank">ajs@shinkuro.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>, John C
Klensin</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
<<a href="mailto:klensin@jck.com" target="_blank">klensin@jck.com</a>></span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Message-ID:
<<a href="mailto:2C4BC1C5-3B45-46FA-AA6D-9A60D3C72B35@google.com" target="_blank">2C4BC1C5-3B45-46FA-AA6D-9A60D3C72B35@google.com</a>></span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Mark,</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">thanks - I think what left me in an ambiguous
state was the term "bits on the wire". In your example, under
the IDNA2003 mapping process, the final sigma is mapped into ordinary sigma and
THEN the resulting string is looked up (after conversion to xn-- format using
the punycode algorithm). The two forms become identical prior to lookup. </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Under the proposed IDNA2008 rules, the two
strings remain distinct in both the U-label and A-label format and thus look
"different" on the wire and unless other measures are taken
(bundling, restricted registration, etc) it is possible for the two domains to
yield distinct results on lookup.</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Paul - is that the picture you wanted to
paint?</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">sorry to be slow to see which bits you were
comparing.</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">v</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Vint Cerf</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Google</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">1818 Library Street, Suite 400</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Reston, VA 20190</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">202-370-5637</span></p>
<p style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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