It is still premature to add eszett and final sigma until we have some accompanying text that addresses the security exploit.<div><br></div><div>The two possibilities I could think of are:</div><div><ol><li>Change the prefix for xn--<br>
</li><li>Recommend or require that if the name contains either eszett or final sigma, that any DNS lookup by client software has to be done twice: once with the original, and once with a second string that has these remapped to "ss" and sigma respectively, and is then NFC'ed.</li>
</ol></div><div>Mark<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Mark Davis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mark@macchiato.com">mark@macchiato.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
About eszett, I think we are still waiting on proposed text on the security issue. If the security and interoperability issues can be addressed, I'm happy with allowing eszett, but we haven't seen any text yet, and thus cannot make a firm assessment.<div>
<br clear="all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Vint Cerf <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Consensus Call Tranche 8 (Character Adjustments)</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Polling results: 7 YES 8 NO (see below)</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">It was hard to score the polling because many members wanted to split their responses (e.g. YES for 8a, 8b and NO for 8c)</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">In rough terms, the polls were equal on the YES and NO sides (occasionally counting some votes YES AND NO). I am sure that one could end up with different tallies depending on how one interprets the comments but I think the basic point is that there was not a consensus on YES for all three of the proposals or NO against all three.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Trying to summarize, I think I detect a possible willingness to accept or interest in the following:</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">1. Allow esszet (can be excluded by registry)</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">2. map final sigma into lower case sigma per IDNA2003 (if mapping can be done as an exception rule in IDNA2008???)</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">3. allow JAMO but rely on registries to exclude if desired. The Korean experts are still consulting on this. </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">A key question for all three of these cases is whether there are clear and likely cases of ambiguity in which, absent mandatory mapping or protocol exclusion, two users might enter what they THINK are equivalent U-labels and end up with DIFFERENT punycode and thus different destinations. </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I tried to capture the back and forth below by extracting comments from the emails on this polling cycle and organizing them as comments about 8a and 8b in one group and 8c in another. You'll have to be the judge whether this effort helps or confuses the discussion even more.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Vint</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(8) Specific character adjustments for IDNA2003 -> IDNA2008</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">differences.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(8.a) Make Eszett Protocol-Valid per list discussion.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(8.b) Make Greek final sigma Protocol-Valid per list</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">discussion.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(8.c) Disallow conjoining Hangul jamo per recommendation from</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">KRNIC and others, permitting only precomposed syllables.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">COMMENTS:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">GENERAL COMMENTS:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">What concerns me is the current discussion.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">People are arguing strongly to listen to a ccTLD registry that uses </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Eszett regarding approving it.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">People are arguing strongly to NOT listen to a ccTLD registry that </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">uses Jamo regarding disallowing it.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Sure, there is a difference between approving and disallowing, but, </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">why should we (as in the wg) listen more to one registry than another?</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Are we trusting one more than the other?</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Do we listen more to more active people on this mailing list than </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">parties not as active?</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">--------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">The only reason I have for responding the way I do is that I</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">understand these responses to be the most consistent with the initial</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">principles from which we start: use the Unicode properties, do</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">everything as much as possible by tables, and introduce as few</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">exceptions as are possible and practical. The constraint on "possible</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">and practical" is "internationalize LDH" rather than other goals (such</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">as "write novels in DNS labels" or "make DNS safe for everyone, given</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">that there are a lot of visially-confusable characters" or even</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">"ensure that zone operators can't permit bad things").</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">As far as I am able to tell -- but I'm not an expert in these matters,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">and I don't really have the time to become one -- the inclusion and</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">exclusion in the respective cases are the most consistent with those</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">principles. If we want to adopt other principles, that's ok with me</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">too. It might change my opinion on these cases. I don't have any</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">opinion what the outcome should be overall; I only have an opinion</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">given the overall design principles we're trying to follow. (This is</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the same reason I thought that, even though it's very unlikely anyone</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">will want domain names in, say, Phoenician, the design principle</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">didn't really permit us to exclude the archaic characters.)</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-----------------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Of necessity, any specific language expert(s) are going to be a (small) </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">minority of an IETF WG, which is where "rough consensus" can fail to </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">produce an outcome which incorporates the contributions of the specific </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">language expert(s).</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">It happened in 2002/3, different chair(s), but its not just the chair(s) </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">who hum. I'm still concerned that the Arabic Script meeting at ICANN </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Paris yielded information from the Jawi user community which was </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">dismissed out of hand here. I don't think distance from Minneapolis or </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Dublin really makes a poorer technical argument than proximity.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">It is something of an inherent defect that our "consensus" can mean </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">meeting-centricism, where "meeting" takes on values somewhere along the </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Goonhilly-ISI arc. Our problem space is slightly larger.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Ironically, in 200X, X << 8, it was Koreans who wanted Cherokee banned </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(similarity to ASCII). Fortunately the more popular position did not </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">then prevail.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">------------</font></div><p style="margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px;min-height:14.0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica"> </font><br></p><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">===================SPECIFIC PROPOSALS==========</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(8.a) Make Eszett Protocol-Valid per list discussion.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(8.b) Make Greek final sigma Protocol-Valid per list</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">discussion.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">--------------------------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica"> Note that if we look at the proposals eszett and the one </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">from korea, the eszett is an exception, while the korean proposal uses </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the Unicode properties.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">---------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">While the desire for ß and ς characters is understandable, there are problems with compatibility. Until they are upgraded, which will require some period of time, implementations will be supporting IDNA2003 and not IDNA2008. And for compatibility, for the foreseeable future, even implementations that support IDNA2008 will need to also support IDNA2003. </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">In most cases the differences between these are tractable, for companies like my own. URL X may be valid in IDNA2003 and not IDNA2008 or vice versa, but it never goes to two different locations. These two characters would break that. URL X could go to two *different* locations, depending which standard is being supported.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">If I send someone <a href="http://grosse.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#0018e8" style="color:#0018e8"><u>große.com</u></font></a> in an email, then depending on what tools the user uses to read that email, it could end up at <a href="http://grosse.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#0018e8" style="color:#0018e8"><u>grosse.com</u></font></a> (a legitimate site) or <a href="http://grosse.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#0018e8" style="color:#0018e8"><u>große.com</u></font></a> (a spoof site). (Or, of course, <a href="http://grosse.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#0018e8" style="color:#0018e8"><u>große.com</u></font></a> could be the legitimate site and <a href="http://grosse.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#0018e8" style="color:#0018e8"><u>grosse.com</u></font></a> the spoof site.) This represents a significant security problem.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;line-height:19px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;line-height:19px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Sigma is fundamentally a presentation issue: it should be displayed as </font><font face="Arial" size="3" style="font:12.0px Arial">ς if it is final. An alternative approach would be to add a SHOULD that it be so displayed.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;line-height:19px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;line-height:19px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Eszett is slightly trickier. Yet its use in German orthography is not fundamentally required, as evidenced by the fact that it is not used in High German within in Switzerland, with no apparent ill effects on the population (see, for example, <a href="http://www.nzz.ch/" target="_blank"><font color="#0018e8" style="color:#0018e8"><u>http://www.nzz.ch/</u></font></a>). And the recommended usage of ss vs ß changed substantially in the latest, not-wholly successful, German spelling reforms. As a percentage of words in use, especially when weighted by usage, the number that are distinguished by ss vs ß are vanishingly small.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;line-height:19px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;line-height:19px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">As stated in rationale-03:</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> They [DNS 'names']are typically derived from, or rooted in, some</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> language because most people think in language-based ways. But,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> because they are mnemonics, they need not obey the orthographic</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> conventions of any language: it is not a requirement that it be</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> possible for them to be "words".</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:12px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> This distinction is important because the reasonable goal of an IDN</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> effort is not to be able to write the great Klingon (or language of</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> one's choice) novel in DNS labels but to be able to form a usefully</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> broad range of mnemonics in ways that are as natural as possible in a</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" style="font:10.0px Helvetica"> very broad range of scripts.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Thus while recognizing the legitimate desire of people to use ß and ς characters, the cost in terms of compatibility and security does not appear to be worth the gain. It is thus too early for consensus on these.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Instead, those wanting to make this change should propose some mechanisms for avoiding the security problems -- only if those can be overcome in a reasonable fashion could we incorporate this change, allowing ß and ς.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">----------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">YES for 8.a and 8.b. Despite the transition issues</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">mentioned by Mark, the long discussion on this list has</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">shown that these are the right things to do in the long term.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">While I'm not aware of any concrete examples of similar</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">cases, I think it would be worthwhile to check with other</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">potentially affected script/language communities.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">What, for example, about the few final letters in Hebrew?</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-------------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Or the many initial and final letters in Arabic? The answer in</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">both cases is that these are individual characters and are</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">PROTOCOL-VALID. </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">[Note by another WG member:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I have to apologize for picking the Hebrew finals example.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I was on a train, guessing. The answer is that the Hebrew</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">finals are PROTOCOL-VALID. But that's not the case for</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Arabic. In Hebrew, there are just a few final variants,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">and they got encoded as first-class letters, and because</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Hebrew doesn't have case, they didn't get excluded by</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">special case folding the way the Greek final sigma has.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">However, Arabic has a lot of initial/final/medial/isolated</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">glyph variants, and therefore these are context-dependent</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">and created by rendering engines, not encoded as such.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">There are encodings of these variants in the compatibility</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">area, but they should be excluded (DISALLOW) by the fact</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">that there are compatibility mappings from them to the</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">base letters.]</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">What I believe got us into difficulty with</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Eszett and Final Sigma wasn't the positioning issue or an</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">alternate shaping one but the intersection between them and the</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">case-folding rules. Since, at least as of Unicode 3.2, neither</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">of them had upper-case forms and IDNA2003 violated the Unicode</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Standard's advice against using case-folding to actually map</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">characters (rather than using it only in comparison but</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">retaining the original forms), the only result consistent with</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the general IDNA2003 model was Eszett -> "ss" and Final Sigma -></font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Medial Lower Case Sigma.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Since neither Hebrew nor Arabic (nor any of the other scripts</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">that have position-sensitive characters) have case, they cannot</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">get into the same problem.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Since we don't do case mapping in IDNA2008, the case folding</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">issue does not apply, regardless of what one thinks of that</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">operation and its applicability. Without it, the only issue is</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">whether it is worth banning the characters to preserve part of</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the IDNA2003 behavior (or making a major exception and</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">preserving the IDNA2003 mapping behavior) for the long term even</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">though it is clear that, were the decision being made for the</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">first time with the IDNA2008 rules, we would not even be asking</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the question.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">[Note by another WG member:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Yes indeed. But eszett and final sigma are not the only ones</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">affected by casing. The data that deals with cases where casing</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">isn't one-to-one is <a href="http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/SpecialCasing.txt" target="_blank">http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/SpecialCasing.txt</a>.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">That includes a lot of data that may be irrelevant for us,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">but I think it would be worthwhile to carefully examine it</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">so that we can fix everything that we need to fix.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">The first character that comes to my mind is the lower</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">dotless I, used for Turkish and Turcic languages.]</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">--------------</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">If eszett and final-sigma are permitted, there must be discussions on</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">backwards compatibility and security consequences. This brings back the</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">discussion that it may be lower over-all cost to change the xn-- prefix</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">for IDNA2008.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I'm not yet ready to decide on 8.a and 8.b until we have discussed and</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">reviewed the backwards compatibility and security issues. Pending such</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">text to review, I'd say NO because we do not know what the consequences</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">of making this change is today.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">----------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica"> On these</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">two, I have no opinion; I don't feel sufficiently qualified to say</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">whether these individual characters should be altered. My</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">understanding is that, because they are consistent with the tables</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">approach that we are taking, the only reason to exclude them would be</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">historical. Since the unhappiness with some of those historical</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">decisions is part of the justification for the current work, it seems</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">to me that these ought to be allowed (although I wonder whether 8.b</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">ought to have a context rule).</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Could you explain why you would require a context rule for Final</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Sigma without requiring one for Eszett? Certainly it would be</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">easier to specify a rule for the former ("Script=Greek") while</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the latter would presumably either require either "Script=Latin"</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(which wouldn't do much good) or an enumerated list of</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">characters. One can't require that the character actually</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">appear in the last position in a label without preventing people</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">from constructing labels by cramming words together... any</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">prohibition along _those_ lines should certainly be a registry</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">decision, IMO.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">For the record (and context when that discussion re-emerges on</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the list), at least some of the Greek IDN community would prefer</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">that we preserve the IDNA2003 mapping / case-folding behavior</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">for final sigma even if that is the only required mapping in</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">IDNA2008.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-----------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">These should only be made PVALID *if* sufficient information</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">is added to the protocol document about the particular</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">transition and security issues involved in making them</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">so. It is far safer to leave them DISALLOWED -- and in</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the particular case of the final sigma, to make recommendations</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">for *display* of domain names.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-------------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:10px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#0000dd" style="font:12.0px Helvetica;color:#0000dd">FWIW I volunteer for providing text to the protocol doc with respect to </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:10px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#0000dd" style="font:12.0px Helvetica;color:#0000dd">8.a</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Having this text available now would influence my position on this. I</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">think it is very complicated text to write. To fully evaluate all</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">alternatives, I believe it also will need to compare the costs of making</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the change against changing the xn-- prefix.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Wrt permanence, if we change the prefix, at least all wire-encoded IDN</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">URLs would remain permanent between IDNA2003 and IDNA2008. I'm also</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">concerned with stable URIs. Possibly IDNA could take the position that</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">it will never make backwards incompatible changes without changing the</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">prefix: that means wire-encoded IDN URLs are permanence-safe.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">--------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Thanks for the offer. Text eagerly awaited -- I've got some</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">notes, but I'm sure what you have will be complementary and</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">better.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">More generally, those two characters have been extensively</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">discussed, both on and off-list. In the case of Eszett (8.a)</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the German orthographic situation is clear and the top-level</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">registries who are likely to be most affected understand the</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">transition issues (either way) and are willing to deal with</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">them. In the Sigma case, the current registry preference is to</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">preserve the IDNA2003 mapping as part of the protocol (see</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">forthcoming note). </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">[Note by another WG member:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Actually, [this] would be a 180 degree turn from the much earlier</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">and broader decision to eliminate all mappings from the protocol</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">and to make transformations between U-labels and A-labels fully</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">reversible without loss of information. It is, however,</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">consistent with the position Vaggelis suggests and requests in</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the note he posted today; I was just trying to identify that</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">preference in my note, not advocate for it.]</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">Characterizing the eszett as an exception is correct on one level,</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">but in my view, it's only an exception because we took the wrong</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">rules for IDNA2003. And these rules are even more wrong for IDNA 2008.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">[Note by another WG member:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">With "exception", I mean "exception" as defined in the tables document </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">of IDNA200x.]</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">What IDNA 2003 needed was some kind of case mapping. Unicode provided</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">two levels of case mapping: a) the simple one-to-one case mappings,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">and b) special-casing for cases such as eszett (on top of a).</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">At the time of IDNA 2003, the mood was: 1) We have to take some</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">existing tables, we can't construct our own or we'll never finish.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">2) Take special-casing, because that's what you would do for search,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">and domain name lookup is essentially search.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">The problem with this is that 2) isn't exactly true. In search,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">you get back original documents, so there are no misspelling</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">issues. For IDNs, you get back whatever you put in after case</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">folding, and so you end up with misspellings.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">So in my view, we should look at what we get when we remove</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font:12.0px Lucida Grande">special-casing from our rules.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-----------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I could live with 8.a and 8.b</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">YES to 8.a and 8.b</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">------------</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I would like the final sigma to continue working as today so that</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">registrants can use small caps domain names as they usually do in the Greek</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">language, typing the final sigma at the end of the word.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Please accept an example for clarification reasons for the members of our</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">list:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">It would be best if "κύπρος" and "κύπροσ" were represented with different</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">punycode translation since they would be correctly represented in the</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">address bar.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">However, although in IDNA2008 the upper case characters are invalid I am</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">sure that they will be accepted in the browser and translated to small case</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">characters. In this translation case, there is no upper case character</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">equivalent to the final sigma. Both final sigma and medial sigma have the</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">same uppercase (Σ).</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">This brings us to the case where if you have registered "κύπρος", you will</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">have no way to write this domain in upper case, other than misspell it to</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">"ΚΥΠΡΟς" while somebody else could have registered "κύπροσ" (xn--vxakcel0d)</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">- "ΚΥΠΡΟΣ" in uppercase and on purpose phish for your clients who rightfully</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">think that "ΚΥΠΡΟΣ" is the correct uppercase equivalent for "κύπρος".</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">If in IDNA2008 you make final sigma and medial sigma different characters</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">but you accept both, in the Greek registry we will try to make a DNAME of</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the two domain names and protect our registrants. I do not expect this to be</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the case with the gTLDs or anyone else allowing registrations in Greek</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">characters.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">At present the protocol as proposed excludes the final sigma from the table</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">of characters that are valid for registration. The certain thing for me,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">however, is that the use of the final sigma in an address bar is mandatory</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">for the representation of the Greek language and it should somehow be in the</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">protocol.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Since we have two possible solutions, I could discuss on the pros and cons</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">of any of them. My preference is with the one where the protocol proactively</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">prohibits phishing and allows for the correct translation from Upper case to</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Lower case for a good user experience of the IDNs. Thus I propose to</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">maintain the IDNA2003 solution, the character mapping, in IDNA2008.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">================================</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(8.c) Disallow conjoining Hangul jamo per recommendation from</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">KRNIC and others, permitting only precomposed syllables.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">===============================================</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">From our Korean colleagues:</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Dear Dr. Cerf and other WG members,</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">First of all, I would like to thank WG members for their comments on this matter.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I have been discussing this issue again with my government since our last IETF meeting. </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Among several government bodies (Ministry of Knowledge Economy, Korea Communications and Commissions, etc) and government agencies (Korean Agency for Technology and Standards and the National Institute of The Korean Language, Korean Standards Association), there was a lively discussion on the feedbacks from IDNAbis IETF WG.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">The position of the Korean government is the same as before since we made a decision very carefully to prevent a potential harm for IDN users.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">I will try to provide more clear explanation on this Hangul Jamo issue next week. Please understand that the government process is slow.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Thank you.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Regards,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Jaeyoun Kim</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">National Internet Development Agency of Korea (NIDA)</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">=================</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">A YES vote would represent a significant security problem, and slow the development of IDNA2008 significantly. There are two distinct issues wrapped up in this tranche.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">As for the conjoining Hangul characters, these are used in representing non-modern Hangul characters. The committee has had a long-standing consensus for *not* going character by character through each script to determine which are the modern-use characters and which are not. We do not need to reopen this issue.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">If this change is made, then that would force us to rethink that policy, potentially bogging us down in protracted analyses of the different scripts to exclude non-modern use characters, such as </font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" color="#0018e8" style="font:10.0px Helvetica;color:#0018e8"><a href="http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=01BF" target="_blank">U+01BF</a></font><font face="Times" size="2" style="font:10.0px Times"> ( </font><font face="Lucida Grande" size="2" style="font:10.0px Lucida Grande">ƿ </font><font face="Times" size="2" style="font:10.0px Times">) LATIN LETTER WYNN</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="2" color="#0018e8" style="font:10.0px Helvetica;color:#0018e8"><a href="http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=16B9" target="_blank">U+16B9</a></font><font face="Times" size="2" style="font:10.0px Times"> ( </font><font face="LastResort" size="2" style="font:10.0px LastResort">ᚹ</font><font face="Times" size="2" style="font:10.0px Times"> ) RUNIC LETTER WUNJO WYNN W</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">and many, many others.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">----------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">NO for 8.c, for the reasons explained by Mark.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">KRNIC is free (or better, strongly recommended) to exclude</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">conjoining Hangul from what they allow to register,</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">but that should not influence our discussion too much.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px">
<br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">[Just as a hopefully far-fetched example, assume that</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">one day in North Korea, a few Hangul syllables containing some</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">historic Jamos gains crucial importance.]</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">----------------</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">This appears to open the character-by-character decision making that</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">we already ruled out. As Mark Davis argues, if we accept this</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">restriction then we probably need to re-open the discussions about</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">obsolete scripts, &c. It sounds to me very like a registry policy.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">The argument that some people will get that registry policy wrong has</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">already been floated, and we rejected it. Indeed, if we don't reject</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">that premise, then all of the local mapping approach that we've taken</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">should be tossed out, and we should go back to strict mapping in the</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">protocol.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">-------------</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Let me try to explain the other point of view, to the extent to</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">which I understand the issues as they have been explained to me</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">by the group associated with the Korean registry (if I have it</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">wrong, I hope they will step in directly). I am going to try to</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">write this so as to not be inflammatory. If I fail, I want to</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">stress that being inflammatory is not my intent and ask</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">forgiveness in advance.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Unicode classifies characters in various ways using a collection</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">of categories and properties. Those categories and properties</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(or at least the vast majority of them) were designed long</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">before the IETF started thinking about IDNs; they were certainly</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">not optimized for IDNA requirements. Given that, we should be</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">grateful and pleasantly surprised that the properties work as</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">well as they do for our purposes. On the other hand, we should</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">not be surprised when, for some group of characters, they do</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">not... and that has nothing to do with character by character</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">decisions, at least as I understand that term. </font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br>
</div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Before addressing the Hangul question, let me invent an example</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">that is counterfactual, i.e., barring something unforeseen, we</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">are unlikely to ever have to deal with it directly. There is a</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">proposal pending for ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 to add a number of</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">annotation marks for Arabic. These marks are, according to the</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">proposal (with confirmation from independent experts) used</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">strictly for pedagogical purposes. Obviously, if one were</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">going to transmit the instructional texts electronically in</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">other than page image form, they have to have code points. They</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">are identified in the proposal with General Category "Sk"</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">(modifier symbols). With that classification, the rules in</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">"Tables" would automatically place them in DISALLOWED. But</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">suppose the proposal had identified them as modifier letters</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">instead (I'm told there is a case to be made for that, even</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">though the relevant Unicode folks have --wisely from our point</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">of view but perhaps not others-- decided otherwise). Then we</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">would need to exclude them (the whole group, not</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">character-by-character) as a backward-compatibility issue</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">because otherwise, to quote a colleague, we would have a huge</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">mess on our hands, with all sorts of equivalences failing.</font></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">Again, this is _not_ an issue, but it may help in thinking about</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica">the Hangul problem.</font></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:14px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica"></font></div></div></div></div>...<br><br>[Message clipped] <br>_______________________________________________<br>
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