<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Dear Jaeyoun Kim,<div><br></div><div>I think all of us want to do the right thing with regard to the JAMO question. It is probably fair to say that there is not yet agreement as to what the "right thing" is or how to achieve it although my impression so far is that there is some consensus that any registries who wish to follow the restrictions recommended by your Korean team are free to do so. The more fundamental question is whether the JAMO symbols should be formally excluded from IDN usage by protocol rather than by policy. I will try to summarize where I think the discussions have gotten on this topic but in any case, further input from you will be much appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>vint </div><div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><div>NOTE NEW BUSINESS ADDRESS AND PHONE</div><div>Vint Cerf</div><div>Google</div><div>1818 Library Street, Suite 400</div><div>Reston, VA 20190</div><div>202-370-5637</div><div><a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a></div><div><br></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></span> </div><br><div><div>On Oct 16, 2008, at 8:43 AM, Jaeyoun Kim wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">Dear Dr. Cerf and other WG members,<br><br>First of all, I would like to thank WG members for their comments on this matter.<br><br>I have been discussing this issue again with my government since our last IETF meeting. <br> <br>Among several government bodies (Ministry of Knowledge Economy, Korea Communications and Commissions, etc) and government agencies (Korean Agency for Technology and Standards and the National Institute of The Korean Language, Korean Standards Association), there was a lively discussion on the feedbacks from IDNAbis IETF WG.<br><br>The position of the Korean government is the same as before since we made a decision very carefully to prevent a potential harm for IDN users.<br> <br>I will try to provide more clear explanation on this Hangul Jamo issue next week. Please understand that the government process is slow.<br><br>Thank you.<br><br>Regards,<br>Jaeyoun Kim<br>National Internet Development Agency of Korea (NIDA)<br> <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:18 PM, Vint Cerf <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div> I am traveling in Oregon at the moment and will try to summarize the state of responses tonight to the latest set of consensus questions.<div><br></div><div>I confess that I share Patrik's concern for disregarding a consensus process from a specific language expert group.</div> <div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>vint</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></font><div><div><div> <span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div> <div>NOTE NEW BUSINESS ADDRESS AND PHONE</div><div>Vint Cerf</div><div>Google</div><div>1818 Library Street, Suite 400</div><div>Reston, VA 20190</div><div>202-370-5637</div><div><a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a></div> <div><br></div></div></span><br></span><br></span></span></span> </div><br></div><div><div></div><div><div><div>On Oct 16, 2008, at 1:33 AM, Patrik Fältström wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin: 0px;"> On 16 okt 2008, at 06.08, Martin Duerst wrote:</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin: 0px;">I had a look at the document again. For those points of the</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">proposal where it disagrees with what we currently have,</div><div style="margin: 0px;">the words "not needed" are used. Nothing that even comes</div><div style="margin: 0px;">close to words such as "harmful", "confusing", or the like</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">appears for points 1 and 2. The word "confusing appears for</div><div style="margin: 0px;">point 3, Hangul Compatibility Jamo, which we already disallow.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">Of course writing and reading such documents is always frought</div><div style="margin: 0px;">with difficulties, but I don't think that the hypothesis that</div><div style="margin: 0px;"> the authors understand the difference between "we don't need</div><div style="margin: 0px;">them" and "these are dangerous" is far-fetched.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">Fair. Thanks Martin for taking time to read this document again.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">This because I think having an IETF wg make a decision about consensus <span> </span></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">that is _against_ a proposal from a formal organisation like NIDA that <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;">say they have been running a consensus driven process in Korea with <span> </span></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">participants from Korean Agency for Technology and Standards (National <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;">Body of ISO and IEC), the National Institute of The Korean Language, <span> </span></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">etc, is serious.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">If we had a similar situation in Sweden where IETF ruled against what <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;"> similar consensus driven process in Sweden about Swedish...well, I <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;">would start asking serious questions on how consensus in IETF was <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;"> reached.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">So, I am as editor of the tables document neutral in the issue. I just <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;">envision that for 8.c, we will get questions given what the consensus <span> </span></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">seems to be at the moment.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;"><span> </span>Patrik</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin: 0px;">Regards,<span> </span>Martin.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">At 04:31 08/10/16, Patrik F舁tstr� wrote:</div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">On 15 okt 2008, at 20.36, Andrew Sullivan wrote:</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin: 0px;"> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 08:20:05PM +0200, Patrik F舁tstr� wrote:</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin: 0px;">Understood. Note that if we look at the proposals eszett and the <span> </span></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">one</div><div style="margin: 0px;">from korea, the eszett is an exception, while the korean proposal</div><div style="margin: 0px;">uses</div><div style="margin: 0px;">the Unicode properties.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">Hmm.<span> </span>If this is the case (and at least in the Korean proposal, my</div><div style="margin: 0px;">notes make me think that we have a different meaning of "Unicode</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">properties" in the above, but I'm certainly not willing to assert <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;">that</div><div style="margin: 0px;">I'm right), then I'm even more confused than I at first thought I <span> </span></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">was.</div><div style="margin: 0px;">So I'm going to shut up about this topic, but I _still_ have to say</div><div style="margin: 0px;">"no", since the consensus call said explictly that silence would be</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">counted as support (and I obviously can't support what I don't</div><div style="margin: 0px;">understand).</div> </blockquote><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;"> I understand your statement, and view.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">I am just confused over the reaction in general from people.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">I have attached the Korean proposal, which in short is:</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">1. Add Hangul Jamo to blocks to disallow (i.e. "2.1.4 IgnorableBlocks</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">(D)")</div><div style="margin: 0px;">2. Add two codepoints (that is "Inherited", but not DISALLOWED by</div><div style="margin: 0px;">other means) to DISALLOWED</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">I.e. I must correct myself when I said that the proposal is only <span> </span></div><div style="margin: 0px;">using</div><div style="margin: 0px;">Unicode properties. I can not (but I am tired...) see how to catch <span> </span></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">the</div><div style="margin: 0px;">two Bangjeom codepoints U+302E and U+302F without using exceptions.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">People interested in this discussion should also re-read the messages</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">from Ken where he explain his view is that this is something that</div><div style="margin: 0px;">should be expressed by a registry policy.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div> <div style="margin: 0px;">Message-Id: <<a href="mailto:200807281913.m6SJDpL01810@birdie.sybase.com" target="_blank">200807281913.m6SJDpL01810@birdie.sybase.com</a>></div><div style="margin: 0px;">Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:13:51 -0700 (PDT)</div> <div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;"><span> </span>Patrik</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"> <br></div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">_______________________________________________</div><div style="margin: 0px;">Idna-update mailing list</div><div style="margin: 0px;"> <a href="mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">Idna-update@alvestrand.no</a></div><div style="margin: 0px;"><a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update" target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update</a></div> </blockquote><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">#-#-#<span> </span>Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">#-#-#<span> </span><a href="http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target="_blank">http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> <span> </span><a href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp" target="_blank">mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a></div> <div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div> </blockquote><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div><div style="margin: 0px;">_______________________________________________</div> <div style="margin: 0px;">Idna-update mailing list</div><div style="margin: 0px;"><a href="mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">Idna-update@alvestrand.no</a></div><div style="margin: 0px;"><a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update" target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br> Idna-update mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">Idna-update@alvestrand.no</a><br> <a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update" target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>