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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I agree with the line of thought that we really should
not disregard the results of the consensus position established by the most
relevant language community after a rather extensive consensus process, so in
general, I would side with the experts in Korea.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Nevertheless, having been through this discussion for
many times, I understand that there are opinions otherwise and am hoping to
make a suggestion that could reconcile the lines of thought and be consistent
with our architecture. When we last discussed the issue of conjoining Hangul
Jamo, I had suggested exploring the possibility of addressing them in the
following manner:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>1. categorize all Hangul Jamo as CONTEXTO<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>2. add stability contextual rule for these codepoints where
the following must be true:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>toNFKC(toCaseFolded(toNFKC(label))) != label<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I am not familiar enough with Korean, but this might
strike a graceful balance between disallowing conjoining jamo that forms a
modern hangul and continue to allow archaic Jamo without creating too much of a
confusion?... <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>If I recall correctly, there was response that it seemed
interesting, but was not further discussed. Do people think it might be a
viable approach to resolve the issue?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Edmon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vint Cerf<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Patrik Fältström<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Martin Duerst; idna-update@alvestrand.no; Andrew Sullivan<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Consensus Call Tranche 8 (Character Adjustments)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I am traveling in Oregon at the moment and will try to
summarize the state of responses tonight to the latest set of consensus
questions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I confess that I share Patrik's concern for disregarding a
consensus process from a specific language expert group.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>vint<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>NOTE NEW BUSINESS ADDRESS AND PHONE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Vint Cerf<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Google<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>1818 Library Street, Suite 400<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Reston, VA 20190<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>202-370-5637<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><a href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Oct 16, 2008, at 1:33 AM, Patrik Fältström wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 16 okt 2008, at 06.08, Martin Duerst wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I had a look at the document again. For those points of the<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>proposal where it disagrees with what we currently have,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>the words "not needed" are used. Nothing that even
comes<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>close to words such as "harmful",
"confusing", or the like<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>appears for points 1 and 2. The word "confusing appears
for<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>point 3, Hangul Compatibility Jamo, which we already
disallow.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Of course writing and reading such documents is always
frought<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>with difficulties, but I don't think that the hypothesis
that<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>the authors understand the difference between "we don't
need<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>them" and "these are dangerous" is
far-fetched.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Fair. Thanks Martin for taking time to read this document
again.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>This because I think having an IETF wg make a decision about
consensus <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>that is _against_ a proposal from a formal organisation like
NIDA that <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>say they have been running a consensus driven process in
Korea with <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>participants from Korean Agency for Technology and Standards
(National <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Body of ISO and IEC), the National Institute of The Korean
Language, <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>etc, is serious.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>If we had a similar situation in Sweden where IETF ruled
against what <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>similar consensus driven process in Sweden about
Swedish...well, I <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>would start asking serious questions on how consensus in
IETF was <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>reached.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>So, I am as editor of the tables document neutral in the
issue. I just <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>envision that for 8.c, we will get questions given what the
consensus <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>seems to be at the moment.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Patrik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Martin.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>At 04:31 08/10/16, Patrik F<span lang=ZH-CN
style='font-family:"PMingLiU","serif"'>舁</span>tstr? wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 15 okt 2008, at 20.36, Andrew Sullivan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 08:20:05PM +0200, Patrik F<span
lang=ZH-CN style='font-family:"PMingLiU","serif"'>舁</span>tstr? wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Understood. Note that if we look at the proposals eszett and
the <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>one<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>from korea, the eszett is an exception, while the korean
proposal<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>uses<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>the Unicode properties.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hmm.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span>If this
is the case (and at least in the Korean proposal, my<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>notes make me think that we have a different meaning of
"Unicode<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>properties" in the above, but I'm certainly not willing
to assert <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>that<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I'm right), then I'm even more confused than I at first
thought I <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>was.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>So I'm going to shut up about this topic, but I _still_ have
to say<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>"no", since the consensus call said explictly that
silence would be<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>counted as support (and I obviously can't support what I
don't<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>understand).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I understand your statement, and view.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I am just confused over the reaction in general from people.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I have attached the Korean proposal, which in short is:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>1. Add Hangul Jamo to blocks to disallow (i.e. "2.1.4
IgnorableBlocks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>(D)")<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>2. Add two codepoints (that is "Inherited", but
not DISALLOWED by<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>other means) to DISALLOWED<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I.e. I must correct myself when I said that the proposal is
only <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>using<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Unicode properties. I can not (but I am tired...) see how to
catch <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>the<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>two Bangjeom codepoints U+302E and U+302F without using
exceptions.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>People interested in this discussion should also re-read the
messages<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>from Ken where he explain his view is that this is something
that<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>should be expressed by a registry policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Message-Id: <<a
href="mailto:200807281913.m6SJDpL01810@birdie.sybase.com">200807281913.m6SJDpL01810@birdie.sybase.com</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:13:51 -0700 (PDT)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Patrik<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Idna-update mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no">Idna-update@alvestrand.no</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><a
href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>#-#-#<span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Martin
J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>#-#-#<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp">http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Idna-update mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no">Idna-update@alvestrand.no</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><a
href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Checked by
AVG - http://www.avg.com<br>
Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1722 - Release Date: 15-Oct-2008
8:02 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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