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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have to say that I agree with
Mark. I think he is very much on the right track. I do not think
DISALLOWED should be set in stone. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We, in this forum, do not have sufficient
knowledge of possible future use to do so. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Debbie
Garside</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Davis<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 28 April 2008 05:36<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Paul Hoffman<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> idna-update@alvestrand.no<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Historic scripts as
MAYBE?</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Various people may want
different things; that doesn't mean that all desires can be simultaneously
satisfied -- one has to balance the importance. And to balance, one needs to
have a clear statement as to the pros and cons.<br>
<br>
There is a distinct cost to making DISALLOWED be permanent, once assigned.
While I would expect the number of future exceptional characters to be very
small, I posed the following question:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='margin-left:30.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>> For example, as an
exception, suppose that </span></font><code><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=02DE" target="_blank">U+02DE</a></span></font></code>
( ˞ ) MODIFIER LETTER <span class=nfakpe>RHOTIC</span> HOOK were to
to be added in some future version to the exception list, because it was found
to be needed for a particular African language. This would involve changing
from DISALLOWED to ALLOWED. What would be the practical problem that this
causes?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Let's suppose that it was *your* language at stake, and you could not
us som vry ky lttr -- you wouldn't xactly lik it. So we have to weigh the
advantage, if any, of an unyielding filter on the client side against the
ability to make an exceptional, but perhaps necessary, change in the future.<br>
<br>
You say "Patrik's statements about what a developer would want (a stable
list of what is prohibited so they can filter) seems logical to me." But
what is the case to be made for that? I'm not hearing any concrete examples.
Why is this so important that it be set in stone? I fully understand the
requirement of backwards compatibility for *valid* labels, but not for (only
some) *invalid* ones.<br>
<br>
I'll give a concrete case. Let's suppose that IDNA 2008 is issued based on
Unicode 5.1, and that in the version corresponding to U5.2, PVALID were updated
to include MODIFIER LETTER <span class=nfakpe>RHOTIC</span> HOOK (and it was
removed from DISALLOWED). U5.2 also adds a new assigned character, U+xxxx
IMPORTANT THAI CHARACTER.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<ul type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Application A implements the u5.1 version, and
never changes (Patrik's case). <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Application B updates to the U5.2 version.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ul>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Application A will
disallow some perfectly valid U5.2 labels; labels that Application B allows.
That is, it will disallow both RHOTIC HOOK and IMPORTANT THAI CHARACTER.
Application B will allow both of them. What advantage is it to functionally
distinguish between these two characters? Why is it vital for Application B or
A to do so?<br>
<br>
Mark<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Paul Hoffman <<a
href="mailto:phoffman@imc.org">phoffman@imc.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>At 7:42 PM -0700 4/27/08, Mark Davis wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>True, but remember that there is no bright line with
"archaic/historic".<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I took inclusion in Chapter 14 of TUS to be a bright enough line. Maybe
you're saying it isn't.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If you mean: "nobody uses it", then no script qualifies!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I do not mean that at all. I mean "another qualified standards
body has defined it for us".<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I have gotten no reply back from my message of 5 days ago ("Re:
Stability of valid IDN labels"). Without some concrete user scenerios
making a compelling case, all we have a bald statement about unnamed
"application creators". That is hardly the way to go about doing a
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>We disagree. Patrik's statements about what a developer would want (a
stable list of what is prohibited so they can filter) seems logical to me. You
might code differently, of course. If we go down a path where we require that
developers code in a certain fashion, that makes the spec much more fragile.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Mark <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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