The main reason for mapping ß to "ss" in IDNA2003 is for case insensitivity. That is, so that "<a href="http://Ruß.com">Ruß.com</a>" matches "<a href="http://RUSS.COM">RUSS.COM</a>", which in turn matches "<a href="http://russ.com">russ.com</a>". A small side benefit is that some words that are spelled differently by Swiss, or differently pre/post Spelling Reform also have the same internal form, but that side benefit was really given no weight in the original decision. Remember, also, that a great many words of every language cannot be simply used as is with IDNA. One can't use many extremely common English words; for example, "can'<a href="http://t.com">t.com</a>" won't work.<br>
<br>At this point, I really doubt that that the advantage of having ß outweighs the cost of either incompatibility with IDNA2003, or the morass that would be caused by a prefix change.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 9:41 AM, John C Klensin <<a href="mailto:klensin@jck.com">klensin@jck.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Georg,<br>
<br>
I am pleased to see this position stated clearly by a native<br>
German speaker. Thanks for (again) pointing out the difference<br>
between normal Swiss and German orthography and keyboards. Your<br>
terminology is, incidentally, just fine and your note is very<br>
clear.<br>
<br>
Let me see if I can quickly summarize the technical IDNA issues<br>
with Eszett without taking any position on them.<br>
<br>
(1) IDNA2003 mapped Eszett into "ss". That is no more,<br>
and no less, than a historical fact. But it does imply<br>
that giving Eszett any other treatment going forward<br>
would create an incompatible change. There are<br>
certainly users today, including some in Germany, who<br>
are taking advantage of the mapping, using Eszett in<br>
IRIs and other references but having registered domain<br>
names whose labels contain encoding of the "ss" form.<br>
To paraphrase the discussion Gerv and I are having about<br>
mappings, use of Eszett and the mapping obviously<br>
impressed those users/ registrants as the "least bad"<br>
alternative given what IDNA2003 does with the character.<br>
<br>
(2) It is worth noting, as part of the ongoing<br>
discussion about mapping (or not), that, had Eszett<br>
simply been rejected by IDNA2003 (rather than mapped),<br>
adding it now as a valid (and unmapped) character would<br>
be a simple matter. With the behavior in IDNA2003, any<br>
change is an incompatible one.<br>
<br>
(3) In addition to the "no upper case form", the<br>
argument for making the mapping --and at least part of<br>
the argument that led to the mapping in IDNA2003-- is<br>
that, even though everyone understands that some words<br>
containing "ss" cannot be mapped back into Eszett,<br>
"everyone" would expect the two to match. Again, that is<br>
a report about how we got here historically. I am not<br>
qualified to make a judgment about whether the statement<br>
is actually correct. Arguably, neither is the IETF (see<br>
(5), below).<br>
<br>
(4) There is no _technical_ problem with treating Eszett<br>
as a normal letter in IDNA200X as long as everyone<br>
understands that "no mapping" means "no matching with<br>
the 'ss' form" and we can live with the incompatible<br>
change. You (and clearly some others) believe that is<br>
the right answer for German as written in Germany (and<br>
elsewhere). Some others believe that it is the wrong<br>
answer for German as written in Switzerland (and<br>
elsewhere). But there is no middle ground in which it<br>
can be a character in some places and a notation for<br>
"ss" in others.<br>
<br>
(5) The incompatibility problem is a significant one,<br>
since it would violate the implicit rule that a given<br>
label string that is valid under both IDNA2003 and the<br>
new proposals (known collectively as IDNA200X) must<br>
produce the same ACE (punycode-encoded) string.<br>
<br>
The hard problem here is how the IETF can possibly decide on<br>
this. The default decision should almost certainly be "avoid<br>
incompatibility", but that would leave you stuck with a decision<br>
that was made early in the decade, possibly without adequate<br>
information or consideration. While it certainly isn't a matter<br>
for "voting" or "collecting endorsements", I would think that<br>
the IETF would find statements very helpful from the ccTLD<br>
registries from German-speaking countries (and, ideally,<br>
countries with large enough German-speaking populations to have<br>
a lot of German-based registrations) about what they wanted to<br>
do and how they would deal with the incompatibility problem<br>
(e.g., by using "variant" techniques to be sure that a new<br>
registration that included Eszett did not end up in different<br>
hands from an existing registration that properly used the "ss"<br>
alternate spelling) were the change made.<br>
<br>
I believe that we can make some incompatible changes like this<br>
(and like the addition of ZWJ and ZWNJ with contextual controls)<br>
now if there is fairly strong consensus in the<br>
materially-affected communities that the change is important<br>
enough and that they are prepared to deal with it. I also<br>
think it is our last chance, so we had better get it right this<br>
time. Others may disagree with one or both of those beliefs.<br>
<br>
thanks again,<br>
john<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--On Friday, 07 March, 2008 17:52 +0100 Georg Ochsner<br>
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><<a href="mailto:g.ochsner@revolistic.com">g.ochsner@revolistic.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> I am a native German speaker (born in Austria, living in<br>
> Germany). I noticed that there have already been postings<br>
> about the German sharp s (Eszett) but actually very few (if<br>
> any) from German people (Afaik Martin is from Switzerland,<br>
> where people normally do not use the sharp s).<br>
><br>
> I want to stress how important the sharp s actually is for<br>
> most of the German speaking users. Beside the 3 umlauts which<br>
> can already be used in IDNs the sharp s is the 4th character<br>
> which would really matter for users. Over 90 million German<br>
> speakers do use the sharp s. In German texts it is used more<br>
> often than the letters "j", "q" and "y" for instance. The<br>
> sharp s has (of course) a direct key on German keyboards.<br>
><br>
> Concerning IDNA I have to say, that the sharp s is NOT equal<br>
> to double s. Mapping the sharp s to "ss" is not natural from a<br>
> user's point of view. If you substitute the sharp s by "ss"<br>
> you will get wrong spelling in most cases and sometimes even<br>
> other words with totally different meanings, which can be<br>
> confusing. There are strict grammatical rules whether to use<br>
> the one or the other.<br>
><br>
> I am not versed enough to know the deep technical impacts, but<br>
> I am enthusiastic about the German language though... How<br>
> could the sharp s be implemented into IDNA so that it can be<br>
> used in IDNs? I read that the Latin capital sharp S has been<br>
> added to Unicode 5.1 now<br>
> (<a href="http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.1.0/" target="_blank">http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.1.0/</a>). The document<br>
> also proposes a tailored casing operation from small to<br>
> capital sharp s where desired. What implications does that<br>
> have on "rule B" in the current table document and the other<br>
> documents?<br>
><br>
> As an user I would really like to see the sharp s in IDNs,<br>
> maybe you can discuss the technical impacts, even if it takes<br>
> kind of workarounds or "special" mappings...? As far as I can<br>
> contribute by collecting orthographic data or contacting<br>
> German language specialist here in Germany to join the<br>
> discussion, please let me know and I will try.<br>
><br>
> Best regards<br>
> Georg<br>
><br>
><br>
> PS.: Please forgive and correct me if I mixed up technical<br>
> terms...<br>
><br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Mark