tables-06b.txt: A.8 Gershayim

Vint Cerf vint at google.com
Thu Jul 23 16:35:06 CEST 2009


that sounds right to me, too, Mark.

v

On Jul 23, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Mark Davis ⌛ wrote:

> I think the simplest course of action is just require the character  
> before to be Hebrew; that is a sufficient limitation on usage.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 02:41, Matitiahu Allouche  
> <matial at il.ibm.com> wrote:
> I totally agree with Ken's analysis of Gershayim usage, and with his
> simplified pseudo-code.
>
> However, I seem to remember somebody mentioning using Gershayim at the
> boundary between preceding Hebrew letters and succeeding letters from
> another script.  Personally, I see no need for this, and such a label
> would probably be disallowed anyway by the rules for Bidi domain  
> names.
> Still, if anybody thinks there is such a use case, he/she should speak
> now.
>
> Shalom (Regards),  Mati
>           Bidi Architect
>           Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts
>           IBM Israel
>           Phone: +972 2 5888802    Fax: +972 2 5870333    Mobile:  
> +972 52
> 2554160
>
>
>
>
> Kenneth Whistler <kenw at sybase.com>
> Sent by: idna-update-bounces at alvestrand.no
> 22/07/2009 05:07
> Please respond to
> Kenneth Whistler <kenw at sybase.com>
>
>
> To
> patrik at frobbit.se
> cc
> idna-update at alvestrand.no, kenw at sybase.com
> Subject
> tables-06b.txt: A.8 Gershayim
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Patrik,
>
> With my general concerns about the pseudo-code
> out of the way, I'll now take up the issue of
> how to express the rule set for A.8. HEBREW PUNCTUATION
> GERSHAYIM.
>
> Currently, the relevant parts of the Appendix state:
>
> Overview:
>   The script of the preceding character and the subsequent
>   character, if any, MUST be Hebrew.
> ...
> Rule Set:
>   False;
>   If Script(Before(cp)) .eq.  Hebrew And
>      LastChar .eq. cp Then True;
>      If Script(Before(cp)) .eq.  Hebrew And
>         Script(After(cp)) .eq.  Hebrew Then True;
>
> First let's consider what the appropriate context for
> the gershayim are in ordinary Hebrew text usage.
>
> The gershayim are used to indicate that a word is to
> be read as an acronym, rather than as a regular word.
> Its position in the acronym is between the next-to-last
> and the last letters of the non-inflected form of the
> acronym. What that means is that it will be preceded
> by one or more letters, and will be followed by at
> least one letter (and possibly more, if the acronym is
> inflected). But it shouldn't occur at the beginning or
> end of a word.
>
> The gershayim are also used to mark numerical usage of
> Hebrew letters, but in the case where a number is
> represented by two or more Hebrew numerals. So again,
> in that case, it would be internal to the numeral,
> and not at the beginning or end.
>
> Then there is a usage to indicate transliteration of
> a foreign word -- but again the position is word-internal,
> between the next-to-last and the last character of the
> word.
>
> From this summary, it would seem that in *normal* usage,
> gershayim should always occur internal to a word. If
> Mati agrees with that general characterization, then I
> believe the context we need to summarize in the Overview
> is more constrained:
>
> Overview:
>   The script of the preceding character and the subsequent
>   character MUST be Hebrew.
>
> And I think *more* constrained is good in this case, as
> internal to a Hebrew word is much less likely to cause
> either confusion with quotation marks or any bidi quirks.
>
> If we agree on that more constrained statement of the
> intended context, then the Rule Set itself can be
> simplified to:
>
> Rule Set:
>   False;
>   If Script(Before(cp)) .eq. Hebrew And
>      Script(After(cp)) .eq. Hebrew Then True;
>
> Note that with my restatement of the pseudo-code, the
> edge cases of gershayim at the beginning or end of a label
> will automatically be excluded, because Before(cp)
> would evaluate to Undefined at the start of a label
> and After(cp) would evaluate to Undefined at the end of
> a label.
>
> I believe this restatement and simplification of A.8
> would be of service to the IDNA2008 users.
>
> --Ken
>
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