I-D Action:draft-ietf-idnabis-mappings-00.txt

jean-michel bernier de portzamparc jmabdp at gmail.com
Wed Jul 1 16:11:47 CEST 2009


I send this mail again because it seemed there were too many cc"s.
---------

2009/7/1 jean-michel bernier de portzamparc <jmabdp at gmail.com>

> Dear Mr. Cerf,
> I am afraid you have a total misreading of our position!!!
>
> Our "direction" works in test for years on and outside the Internet -
> anyone can develop it in Perl in a couple of hours. It is based upon a total
> neutrality of the Internet and of the DNS. What we oppose in what you
> consider is precisely that you disrpect the Charter and  redesign the
> Internet and IDNA. You want to introduce at protocol level (i.e. within the
> Internet pile) new constraints that break the Internet technical neutrality
> in some cases.
>
> We do not really mind because these cases are very limited (at least for
> the time being, but we realise that your appraoch may lead to various
> attempt to control the Internet)  However, in putting mapping at the
> Internet (controlled) level for things that will be important for some
> users, you create deployment issues and you make them lose interoperability
> with the rest of usage.
>
> We document the Internet the way it actually is, including IDNA, active
> content, presentation, DNS, etc.. This is because we need to be sure it can
> support the Intersem (semantic, semiotic, multiclultural, etc.) stratum we
> are interested in. This includes the use of the presentation and session
> control layer.
>
> Jean-Michel A. Bernier de Portzamparc
>
> 2009/7/1 Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
>
> Jean-michel,
>> I consider this discussion to be outside the scope of the working group.
>> In my opinion, the IDNA architecture has already been decided, based on the
>> constraints of the DNS itself. The direction you and others associated with
>> Jefsey want to pursue leads toward a re-design of DNS itself. I am not
>> arguing against a serious consideration of such a thing, only that I don't
>> consider it appropriate for the IDNABIS discussion.
>>
>>
>> vint
>>
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2009, at 8:44 AM, jean-michel bernier de portzamparc wrote:
>>
>> Dear Mr. Cerf,
>> may be could you set-up this mailing list yourself as part of the WG? The
>> reason why is that this is not a theorical but an architectural discussion.
>> As Elisabeth documents it, it will decide of the IDNA architecture. The
>> worst situation would be that a discussion list you called for as a Chair,
>> would conflict with this WG.
>>
>> Best
>> Jean-Michel A. Bernier de Portzamparc
>>
>> Folks,
>>> this discussion is not going to get us closer to agreement on the
>>> remaining task: selection of the set of characters that should undergo some
>>> kind of mapping prior to lookup in the DNS.
>>>
>>> Could I suggest that parties interested in this theoretical discussion
>>> move it to a private distribution list while the WG focuses on finalizing
>>> the mapping choices?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> vint
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2009, at 5:58 AM, Elisabeth Blanconil wrote:
>>>
>>> I understand this. But I am refering to entropy as "a loss of
>>> information", as per Shannon and John. Now, I am not a mathematician here: I
>>> am a semantician. This because we precisely reach here (and this is the
>>> entire problem) the limits of mathematics. If we could quantify the entropy
>>> we could restore the initial information in restoring the corresponding
>>> negentropy.
>>>
>>> The problem we face is that mapping introduce a non quantifiable entropy.
>>> We definitly enter mathematical chaos field through the entropic succession
>>> which chains possible semantic misunderstandings.
>>>
>>> Varela (knowledge), Thom (mathematics), Cullioli (linguistics), Morin
>>> (complex thinking), Von Bertalanffy (systems) etc. identify linguistics,
>>> semantics and pragmatics as the most complex knowlege field. Here we play
>>> with hortotypography with an impact on semantic within different contexts.
>>> For those not familiar with chaos and catastrophy theories or complex
>>> thinking this is like the Lorentz's butterfly in Tokyo. You change a
>>> majuscule into a minuscule (French orthotypography) or an upper case into a
>>> lower case (English orthotypography) and you do not the global impact (it
>>> can be nill, most probably it will change the world, cf. Chaitin and co.).
>>> This is exactly the same as any other phishing: to make someone trust what
>>> he should not.
>>>
>>> Elisabeth Blanconil
>>>
>>> 2009/7/1 Eric Brunner-Williams <ebw at abenaki.wabanaki.net>
>>>
>>>> Any phrasing is possible. Some mean less than others. One of my
>>>> co-workers was tempted to use "entropy" in a policy document recently. I
>>>> prefer not to use the word unless the "entropy" asserted to exist can be
>>>> stated as a mathematical formula. If you could make that attempt, it would
>>>> be helpful. Users deserve statements that purport to "explain" which are
>>>> factually correct.
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>> Elisabeth Blanconil wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 2009/6/30 "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp <mailto:
>>>>> duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    A case mapping is also a 'loss of information', but one that
>>>>>    people clearly want.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could we not phrase this differently ? Case mapping may be considered
>>>>> only if it does not represent a loss of information. Otherwise should we not
>>>>> name it "case and entropy mapping" to explain users where entropy occurs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Elisabeth Blanconil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Idna-update mailing list
>>>>> Idna-update at alvestrand.no
>>>>> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>
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