Additional thoughts on TRANSITIONAL
"Martin J. Dürst"
duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp
Mon Dec 7 12:00:10 CET 2009
On 2009/12/05 5:21, Erik van der Poel wrote:
> If the current drafts of IDNAbis and TR46 were published as RFCs and a
> UTS, respectively, which would MSIE implement? They treat the infamous
> 4 characters differently.
> (Maybe I'm pushing too hard and should stay out of this conflict
> between IETF and Unicode. Maybe I should go back to
> reverse-engineering the browsers and see what actually happens in the
> real world. I am very, very tired of this WG process.)
I think that's because you are asking the wrong questions. The question
isn't which spec MSIE (or any other browser) would implement, the
question is to find a spec that hopefully everybody will implement. My
current guess (and hope!) is that this will be something between the two
specs you are suggesting.
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Shawn Steele
> <Shawn.Steele at microsoft.com> wrote:
>> ??? I wasn't suggesting that IE would avoid the standard. I'm saying it will take a while. FF, Safari, Chrome& Opera don't patch previous versions, they expect users to install the latest& greatest versions. IE does too, but you can see from the adoption rates that it's difficult to get everyone moved very quickly.
>> In particular I very much advocate standards, so I'm a bit surprised by your remark. Just to be clear: None of my positions have been just because that's what I think is "easy" for IE. I am well-known within the company for arguing what's right for the end-user, regardless of how difficult it is on our existing code base.
>> I can't patch IDN and get it to all our customers in a month or two, it's just not possible.
>> From: Erik van der Poel [erikv at google.com]
>> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:48 AM
>> To: Shawn Steele
>> Cc: Andrew Sullivan; Gervase Markham; idna-update at alvestrand.no
>> Subject: Re: Additional thoughts on TRANSITIONAL
>> In the past, we have seen browsers like Firefox, Safari, Chrome and
>> Opera implement various specs rather than trying to be 100% compatible
>> with MSIE. I wonder if this (IDNAbis) is one of those occasions where
>> Firefox will stick to the "official" spec (IETF), hoping to eventually
>> drag MSIE, kicking and screaming, into the "modern age"? Gerv?
>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Shawn Steele
>> <Shawn.Steele at microsoft.com> wrote:
>>> Just sent, but I think transitional that breaks current IDNA2003 sites that work is really bad. I also think anything that builds-in a delay of 5-10 years to get correct language support is also really bad.
>>> From: Erik van der Poel [erikv at google.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:11 AM
>>> To: Andrew Sullivan; Shawn Steele; Gervase Markham
>>> Cc: idna-update at alvestrand.no
>>> Subject: Re: Additional thoughts on TRANSITIONAL
>>> Yes, I'm hoping that we are willing to explore different ways out of
>>> this mess. We currently have two different proposals for IDNA:
>>> In particular, I'd like to hear from Microsoft and Firefox folks, on
>>> their thoughts regarding the TRANSITIONAL ideas.
>>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Andrew Sullivan<ajs at shinkuro.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 09:16:02AM -0800, Erik van der Poel wrote:
>>>>> some point in the future, when there is consensus that it is the right
>>>>> time (and the right thing to do).
>>>> Perhaps I'm am growing cynical with age, but given the difficulty of
>>>> converging now, I have doubts about the chances of converging in the
>>>> future, when there is even more deployed stuff depending on existing
>>>> behaviour. Still, it might work, and I'm by no means saying no. Any
>>>> route out of this twisty little maze of arguments, all repeated, is
>>>> one I'm willing to explore.
>>>> Andrew Sullivan
>>>> ajs at shinkuro.com
>>>> Shinkuro, Inc.
>>>> Idna-update mailing list
>>>> Idna-update at alvestrand.no
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#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp
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