Stability of valid IDN labels
JFC Morfin
jefsey at jefsey.com
Mon Apr 21 01:18:33 CEST 2008
At 20:50 20/04/2008, John C Klensin wrote:
>More important, there is a discussion about IDNs that Jefsey and I
>have had many times. Often we seem to be in complete agreement;
>sometimes I get notes that appear to indicate that we are not. I
>find the combination bewildering, to put it mildly, because I don't
>see the difference between the discussions in which we agree and
>those in which we do not.
Dear John,
if we are in agreement and then we are not, it is because there are
two different problems:
(1) to make the existing Internet architecture to support linguistic
needs. We are in agreement on limitations.
(2) to provide the existing world digital ecosystem convergence with
a Multilingual and Semantic Network contininuity that fits the needs
of the linguistic diversity. There we agree that a presentation layer
is needed. However, you think we can only stick to the IETF
internationalisation. While I think that the existing technology (as
in the ROAD case) is not so limited, and can support more through
another paradigm (applied vision) which has to be found, documented,
developped, tested, and dynamically deployed over the 10 years to
come - and multilinguism is a great opportunity for (it should
support far more than the language diversity). This is why IMHO the
problem is not in the 2008 machines/code, but in the brain of the
designers' community of 2008 who still think the nets as in 1983.
Brainware is far more difficult to update than software.
We are in a real world, with technical, commercial, and political
duties. And we have an opposition between:
- a globalization a few develop and profit from and most do not
understand and will be unhappy with,
- a multilinguisation that most demand but have not understood either
how it works, as it is a part of the Theory of Everything (we are at
the man/machine interface)
Today, to introduce my ideas in _competition_ with IDNA would be at
best delaying and more probably divisive and much counterproductive.
This has to be in _coopetition_. This is not easy to analyse,
explain, make accepted, and worked on.
In the RFC 4646 case, there was an urgent need to protect cultures
and IANA from a Unicode leading consortium English based language
cataloging. Because, as Aristoteles says "when an idea has started
flying it will fly for ever along its premises". Premises is where
one oppose a wrong idea. In this case they were the IETF WG debates.
We desesperately needed the text to be more precise (to be more
interoperable) on points authors, ISO TC37 and WLDC people most
probably still do not identify but that some French school linguists,
industries, politics, and TC46 Members understand very well. This is
why ISO documents are supposed to be written in parallel in French
and English - for a multual pragmatic filtering and a semantic
complementarity - as we discussed it on the Unicode list.
In the IDNA case the first main pressure are the Beijing Olympic
Games (where every Chinese athlete will have a Chinese name for his
site, and the whole non-ASCII world to see it), and in Paris: what
france at large, ISOC and TC46 people will hear at the ICANN meeting
while there still are no French IDNs. So, we have a little more time.
A few French @large lurkers are on this list, and start discovering
the linguistic architectonical difference between IETF and them.
However, these are long haul, very long haul and very important
issues: it is the path to the semantic internet (not the semantic
web) and most probably the network interoperating system.
I said that my plan was to document an acceptable framework for our
work, so we would avoid interfering and there would be less risks
that people confuse what we says and try to oppose it to IDNA. I
apologize for being late but there are many thing to work on, and
understand at the same time. Plus local political interferences by
people not understanding for example why "AFNIC is so slow
implementing French names". There is a real teaching which is
missing. Both sides. Also, I am not that much interested in the
Internet strata which has to work well. I am interested in the
digital convergence as it - alt last - leads to the semantic
emergence. I also feel it is better this WG-IDNABIS be well established first.
One of the things the MLTF identified is that multilingualizing the
name space is not a job for linguists, but for multilinguists.
Linguists try to analyse languages from the linguistic diversity.
Multilinguists try to analyse diversity and document its support.
IDNs are an epiphenomena. To be accepted, a Multilingual Internet has
to be obvious to people from the whole world, in the same way as it
is today to American users. Linguists can help a lot, but their job
is to know human languages, not machine meta and multilanguages
working in parallel.
Also, we are not so much interested in the engineering details of a
possibly weak architectural approach. This is why Louis would like to
see it confirmed. The less IDNA is constrained IRT the real moving
world (what calls for a lot of thinking), the more chances it has to
succeed. In addition, I do not think IDNA and an architectural
evolution oppose. I think there is a full possibility for a
transition. To understand if this is possible, one has to imagine the
future (this is not your target) and try/permit to connect it to what
you work on (interoperability).
I would like not to repeat this. After the PR-action, Debbie Garside
believed she could win easily against me, because she had not
understood what I had won with who. When I proposed her several times
to cooperate, she thought it was technical and political weakness. I
managed a meeting with ISO etc., her, ICANN and me. I tried to make
them understand we were not opposing, but we had to work on a
transition scheme and work proposition from their
internationalisation to "my" (actually WSIS's) multilinguisation.
ICANN smartly stayed in its role, but others refused and maintained
Debbie's NWIP. They lost 3 to the world.
For four years I explain that we will not remove what exists even if
poor (IMHO) globalization. The hysteresis is very long (more than one
million nameservers to update). This is why we have to help
developping better globalization solutions, even if globalization is
not the eventual solution. However, our priority should be
transition, i.e. not to block multilinguisation, to the countrary
working on it and starting deploying some now.
Also, please remember. There is only one hierarchical globalization.
By nature there are multiple heterrchical multilinguization. Let keep
things simple, moreover they are complex.
best,
jfc
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