Return-Path: Received: from murder ([unix socket]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Cyrus v2.2.8-Mandrake-RPM-2.2.8-4.2.101mdk) with LMTPA; Sat, 03 Sep 2005 06:00:13 +0200 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B73320095 for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 06:00:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26124-06 for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 06:00:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.4.8 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C60032008A for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 06:00:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EBP9t-0003B7-8i; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:57:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EBP9p-00039x-OI for ietf@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:57:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27926 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 23:57:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EBPC7-0000VE-7w for ietf@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:59:55 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1EBP9f-0001wy-M8; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:57:24 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.2.20050903025510.05df1030@mail.jefsey.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 04:03:34 +0200 To: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) From: "JFC (Jefsey) Morfin" In-Reply-To: <9d4SRr5Hw-B@khms.westfalen.de> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20050830115145.03a3bd80@mail.jefsey.com> <9d4SRr5Hw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Enough was enough X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ietf-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no At 13:56 02/09/2005, Kai Henningsen wrote: >jefsey@jefsey.com (JFC (Jefsey) Morfin) wrote on 30.08.05 in ><6.2.3.4.2.20050830115145.03a3bd80@mail.jefsey.com>: > > Harald Alvestrand expressed several times that the IETF is neither > > interested nor competent in multilingualism, an area which is > > necessarily, by its complexity, the size of its financial figures and > > the involved industrial, political and cultural interests, the engine > > of the development of the future Internet (RFC 3869 unfortunately did > > not considered). So, he managed or sponsored himself that policy with > > real talent. I was first confronted to that IETF situation through > > the WG-IDNA: it shown me the rightness of his evaluation. > >Frankly, your analysis is about as wrong as possible. Hi! Kai, This may be very well the case. But saying it is not enough. Explaining why would be better. Please indicate who - except Harald Alvestrand and to some extend Paul Hoffman - wrote RFCs on the issue. Please indicate why it is not with talent? Please explain how Harald was then wrong? Or may be you mean something else? >This is NOT about language problems, or about centralization, or >whatever talking of languages? Aere we not talking of (de)centralised approach as opposed to distributed to support languages? To know if it is to be centralised or decentralised is one of the issue of the debate I do not feel concerned about. Distributed, yes. Because it then affects the users technical independance and liberty. > > My sadness is the very very small number of non-English mother tongue > > participants: the alternative SDO Harald found is no really better in > > that area. When addressing multilingualism, this should be very > > concerning for us all. > >Well, I'm certainly a non-English mother tongue participant. In fact, I >seem to recall so is Harald Alvestrand. >And I side with Harald in this. This is your right. But ... what "side" are you refering to??? >Your messages are often so full of jargon they are nearly impossible to >understand. If you refer this way to Franglish, I apologize. If you refer to terms defining precise concepts, you may be also rigth. The way to do otherwise? >Furthermore, they often assert a large number of "facts" that >certainly aren't true in the universe I see around me. If in your world the IETF is a cultural melting pot and RFC 3774 is wrong, I join your universe. But I suppose this is not what you want to say; please can you be so kind as to explain? >And lastly, their connection with the threads you post them in is often >hard to understand, too. This may very well be. However, talking of the way the IETF supports multilingualism in an exchange resulting from a competition over the user dissemination of the multilingual information does not seem unreasonable? Or may be you want to say that I confuse issues? In that case I would agree with you. Many problems, and most of the problems I am interested in, are architectural problems. By nature architectural issues are all related. They also all have in common that the current internet architecture is too tight to feet the usage needs. When you touch one you touch all the others. The solution some propose is to constrict usage to fit in this tight framework. I can only oppose that everywhere, as I think the solution is in the drastic extension of this framework which is under way. Not plesant to have to always oppose. But the framework evolution cannot be acheived in keeping the old solution, and should be common while reactions to status-quo lead to balkanisation. Friendly. jfc _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf