Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050206232533.02987cf0@mail.jefsey.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 00:52:16 +0100
To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
From: "JFC (Jefsey) Morfin" <jefsey@jefsey.com>
Subject: Re: some pending IASA issues
Cc: ietf@ietf.org, Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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On 20:25 06/02/2005, Sam Hartman said:
>Jefsey, you are proposing involving the regional and local chapters in
>the standards process.

Dear Sam,
thank you responding seriously on this point. I value very much this, 
because the reel problem is, IMHO, to discuss it. And you point out the 
very concerns everyone should have.

First, I want to underline that I do not propose involving the regional and 
local chapters. I propose words for two things:

- that IAOC members are also retained for their regional competences. This 
is to avoid that the IASA lacks knowledge and competences which would make 
them consider or favor contractors from a single expensive area. This is 
CIO prevention and good management protection.

- that ISOC and their national (not local) Chapters discuss and report how 
they could bring their support to the IASA. This has nothing to do with the 
Internet standard process. However I do not hide that I hope some common 
case studies could lead active chapter to better contribute (through Last 
Calls or in organizing local mailing lists as some countries have tried, 
what is a good educational support). And some inactive chapter to wake up. 
And that this could help the IETF to wake up on 
international/multilingual/vernacular issues.

>That's a major shift both for the ISOC and for the IETF.  It's also
>inconsistent as far as I can tell with what other organizations like
>IEEE that have both chapters and standards-related activities do.

This is no shift. The shift is in calling upon ISOC administrative hosting. 
The choice was between a self built structure and ISOC. ISOC was chosen and 
comes with an history, an image and a structure. The IASA will share that. 
As you say, this is totally apart from the IETF. But they will blur in 
people's mind. ICANN could have been hosted by ISOC: they said no for that 
reason. ICANN has a huge problem to be identified as an international 
organization. ISOC can help addressing that problem for the IETF and if not 
we have to make clear this was not our intent.

We are at a cross-road. IETF, IAB, ICANN, ISOC, etc. are increasingly 
identified as US centered organizations ("USOC or USOK"). They all pay a 
real effort to look and be international, but they still have very long way 
to go to be and to be accepted as multinational (what we all need if we 
want to avoid a balkanization of the Internet and a technical fragmentation).

My opinion is that if we keep their efforts separated they will be less 
efficient than if we permit them to be in synergy. But we have to make it a 
very flexible way, otherwise old rigidities - like here, in this case - 
will make it worse.

>I agree with you that some members of regional and local ISOC chapters
>would (and do) bring significant value to the standards process.

If they do it this is at personal level - as far as the Internet standard 
process is concerned.

And this is good except on the Multilingual Internet topic, but that topic 
is, right now, out of competence and interest of the IAB/Internet. This is 
something I disapprove, but if you read RFC 3869 and if you note that the 
RFC 3066 mailing list is not an IETF working group [however sponsored by 
the IETF Chair], if you read RFC 3490 which permits to prevent 
internationalized TLDs, etc. you must accept it.

Where national Chapters can contribute is in "selling" the Internet 
documents and IETF core values to their Govs and market. Also to provide 
feed back from their market to the IETF (I say could, not should). It is 
not in staying apart in a multilingual world that IETF and IAB will get 
increased support and R&D funding.

>I question though whether directly involving the regional and local
>chapters would actually be the right way of involving these people why
>not involve them directly?

Again, I do not know. But in calling upon ISOC we necessarily, in a way or 
another, attach their image to the IETF. For good of for bad. We have to 
tackle that aspect.

>Also, I'm concerned that there might be some significant disadvantages
>to directly involving regional and local chapters in the standards
>work.  Traditionally we've had problems/friction when
>marketing/management types get involved in the IETF.  At best it slows
>things down.

:-) this is a genuine acknowledgment of the lack of desire of the IETF to 
get users of its deliverable involved. This is why I always tried to 
discuss the charter and the (pre) last call only. I think this is exactly 
what the Internet standard process calls for. My only disagreement with 
this is that the IESG should include users representatives to save time: 
when the market turn an RFC wrong it creates delays and confusion we could 
have spared (last example being the Draft on Langtags).

But again, this is not what I propose. What I propose is that, once again, 
the IAB/IETF do not send a strong "I am not interested" to all those who 
would like to feel the Internet standard process as also an home process. 
Because they are right now discussing how to build another more 
multilateral process.

>However I think ISOC wants to have a broad appeal with its local
>chapters pulling in people from all parts of Internet business.

Yes. I think every Internet entity should pull in the same direction and 
together. IETF can certainly help ISOC being nationally more attractive. 
ISOC to help the IASA to be more suscessful and cheaper when organizing an 
IETF meeting. ICANN failed there because they killed @large. ISOC can bring 
its own plus. All I say is: this may be one of the last chance of IETF to 
be accepted as multinational. I hate seeing it lost. Because the Internet 
can only be multilingual and its standardization forum can only be 
multinational.

I started working on a "Multilingual Internet documentation through the 
existing Internet standard process" draft this summer. I thought it 
possible, even if it is not a trivial architecturally demanding on the 
IABt. Even after the "RFC 3066bis" draft and this 
no-IASA-internationalization episodes I still think it possible. But I 
frankly consider that if nothing moves in that area this year, the IETF/IAB 
network architecture will be totally out-dated (has anyone investigated the 
real impact of a true multilingual and vernacular usage on applications and 
the way they will appropriate IPv6, totally changing naming and DNS, etc. )

I only hope we can progressively bring the IETF up to speed. Harald 
challenged me on that. I am not interested in a challenge. I only think we 
could together save a few years of delays, confusion and of the 
consequences of the delays and of the confusion (with all the related waste 
of time, money, efforts, motivation, sustainable development, etc.) in 
keeping the IETF as the "internet" standardizing body, rather than copying 
it elsewhere.

Nothing more. I do not know if there is still a chance, but I think it is 
worth trying it.
jfc