Return-Path: Received: from murder ([unix socket]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Cyrus v2.2.8-Mandrake-RPM-2.2.8-4.2.101mdk) with LMTPA; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:54:40 +0200 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE1A61B4B for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:54:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21963-02 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:54:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.4.8 Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14A461AF3 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:54:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dmwnn-0005q9-F8; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:49:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dmw8W-00014G-IT; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:07:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06828; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DmwXg-0000XX-5h; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:33:05 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Dmw7p-0003Xt-AA; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:06:21 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050627180242.05b68350@pop.online.fr> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:03:51 +0200 To: John C Klensin From: Jefsey Morfin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - online.fr X-Scan-Signature: 25eb6223a37c19d53ede858176b14339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA06828 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:49:39 -0400 Cc: Thomas Narten , jkrey@isi.edu, Sam Hartman , IESG , IETF list Subject: IANA evolution - was IANA Action X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ietf-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no At 12:32 27/06/2005, John C Klensin wrote: > > (The IETF is here for engineering the protocols, after all). > >Allison, I'm generally supportive of that view. I've actually >been responsible for writing some of those IANA considerations >sections that require standards-track actions. In the light of >this situation and a few recent other ones, I have modified my >historical view somewhat and would encourage the IESG to do some >similar rethinking. Dear John, I am impressed by this rethinking. I can provide more elements here. We=20 created AFRAC (http://afrac.org) to focus on CRC issues (common reference= =20 center, i.e. granular IANA distribution/extension) at national level. From what I gather IANA (NIC) was the "second" networking main concept=20 historically introduced. Larry Roberts built the transport network in usi= ng=20 Robert Khan's systems and Doug Engelbart proposed a repository, building=20 the infrastructure of the relational layer of the network where he stored= =20 Steve Crocker's documents and their parameters. Then later on Louis Pouzi= n=20 proposed catenet. All was the cimented by TCP/IP and supported later on b= y=20 the DNS, which is a formidable example of a IANA registry granular=20 extension and co-management. We are here therefore at the very core. The "transport" layers were in line with other works of the time and have= =20 been worked on a lot since then. I do not see similar work on the NIC=20 layers other than naming (but no new concept since the RFC 920 consensus)= =20 and Doug Engelbart providing additional tools in mid-80s. I was intereste= d=20 using them for the documentation/repository I started in 1978 for the=20 International Network, as we were both in the same group and woking on ne= w=20 machines which could have welcomed his solutions in that context. Doug accompanied them with a philosophy named "augmentation": the=20 collective IQ of a "bootstrap" (http://bootstrap.org) is augmented by its= =20 networking. The Internet bootstrap was the NIC/IANA managerial group, ie=20 the IESG now. This opposed our observation of the real international usag= e,=20 which could be named "extension": human's reach and relations are extende= d=20 by the network. This extension of productivity obeys a network value law=20 (n.log(n)-=B5.n^2) which shows how the network may also represent a less = in=20 productivty if architectural filtering is too high (this is the immediate= =20 risk with spam or shown by IESG in the HBH code point denial). These two visions resulted from history. Doug started a documentation=20 center in 1970 (?) to accompany the development of a new project (ARPANET= )=20 which grown by "catenisation" ("the network of the networks"). I started = a=20 documentation center to prevent the balkanisation of an existing network=20 (Tymnet International) having to be partitionned (acknowldegment of=20 national monopolies rights to "stand-alone systems", or "externets" as we= =20 now name these "internal 'external networks' look alikes"). I would say=20 "the networks in the network". What is fun is that my problem at that time was ... Dr. Larry Roberts. He= =20 had created Telenet and we were in competiton, under FCC license, so I=20 could not legally ally his international team. This made me to create the= =20 Intlnet ad-hoc structure in 1978 to carry that common documentation work,= =20 supporting Telenet and Uninet as well as every other operator (cf.=20 http://intlnet.org/eintl.htm - "history" part). As Telenet teamed with BB= N=20 (hence, I suppose Bob Hinden was already involved?) Today we face the same problem: who is the standardiser? Is it the design= er=20 (IESG)? the developper (Dr. Roberts) or the user (everyone can chose)? We= =20 face everywhere that question. As for the Tymnet network 28 years ago, th= is=20 is the demand for a network granularity where the current Internet defaul= ts=20 to "one": one numbering scheme, one namespace, one IANA, one ASCII script= ,=20 one English language, one IETF/IAB/IESG, one ICANN, one legacy, one State= =20 sponsor (RFC 3869), one experience, etc. This was not the case in the world network we known with Dr. Roberts. So,= I=20 fully understand and support the nature of his request and the obligation= =20 the community has to positively respond. But I also understand the=20 principle of the IESG "bootstrap" reponse. We have to find a a way to=20 transform all these "one" into parameter able to match the values chosen = by=20 the users. This means customising the Internet. Tymnet already had=20 responses(reliable technology, classes and groups) that Internet has not=20 yet. When in the mid-80s OSI was deployed it internationnaly deployed ove= r=20 Tymnet and was a juxtaposition of network (X.75). So the response was=20 simple, rigid, manual (interconnect agreements), limited (CUGs) but built= -in. A problem is that we are very late. This is not something we can discuss=20 over the next ten years. This is something which will be definitly settle= d=20 by December at the WSIS. We must accept that if the Internet is not broke= n,=20 it is already split (DNS), divided (funding, policy, access to content),=20 threatened (internationalisation vs. multinationalisation), pulverised=20 (PADs: private alias directory, as many name spaces as users). I think no= =20 one expect much of the Tunis meeting (who knows, they may be enlighted?)=20 more than a confirmation of the granularity/subsidiarity principles in=20 governance and usage. This is however revolutionnary for the Internet: it= =20 started as a centralised experimentation, it continued as an IETF=20 standardisation documented decentralisation. It will become a user define= d=20 distrubution. This means a user centric utilisation architecture is=20 self-imposing over a network centric (decentalised) bootstrap conducted=20 system architecture. The dispute over HBH, langtags, mail-ID, NAT, IPv6=20 etc. etc. will be peaceful stories when compared to the resulting=20 transition if it is made by force rather than IETF documented and accompa= nied. There may be other solutions, but I know and accept that the Internet can= =20 address this in being urgently partitionned in a concerted way, preservin= g=20 its end to end interoperability and extending it to person to person=20 interintelligility, in doing the same as Robert Tr=E9hin in 1977 with the= =20 technical support of Joe Rinde. This is why we must engage into a concert= ed=20 well thought partitionning strategy. IMHO the easiest approach is the=20 distribution of the IANA. This is the one we observed as successful in th= e=20 late 70s and early 80s, then in a different way (printed standards, mutua= l=20 agreements) with the rigid OSI. Centralised NIC, decentralised OSI: now w= e=20 have to come back to a distributed approach. But we have to remember that= =20 Tymnet and OSI were reliable technologies, while TCP/IP is an unreliable=20 one. IMHO this gives more possibilities and less stability right now. It=20 will lead to an hybrid vision of the intergovernance (co-existance of=20 trusted and non trusted spaces of exchanges) and possibly to an hybdrid=20 technology further on (for example supporting NASA/ESA type of protocols,= =20 including FEC). We have the experience of ICP-3 where ICANN called in vain IETF to=20 experiment (we did and learned: AFRAC and NICSO result from it). Then the= =20 experience of the root server distribution demanded by the WSIS. It was=20 only addressed by the distribution of the content: this does not change=20 anything to the system's global vulnerability which is in content - as th= e=20 recent AFNIC/IANA/Versign incident shows it - nor to the intelligence=20 issues. Then we have the experience of the langtags, where the IANA is=20 perceived by those opposing the current twice failed proposition, as a wa= y=20 to impose a commercial grid of languages and a competition rather than a=20 cooperation with ISO spheres. Now, we have the HBH case. If one analyses carefully all these issues we see that: - stability of the network calls for a unique or concerted content in=20 registries - when the content of the registries is different its versions must be=20 signed. We must switch from an IETF filtering to an advised and=20 possibly multi-labelled registration. - surety of the networks calls for speed in updates - far better than the= =20 current IANA 3 to 6 months. I am sure there are more than 30 versions of=20 different dates IANA root files currently in use on the Internet.=20 Collectors must give back the authority of content to authors. - security calls on correlative cross checking procedures and tools. This= =20 starts by a standardisation of the registries and of their tools, formats= ,=20 methods of access, update, retrieval, etc. Scalability demands that this = is=20 studied in relation with ISO 11179 work, IETF should enrich and simlify (= as=20 LDAP vs. X.500). - the resulting necessary intergovernance processes must be studied,=20 documented and technically supported. - more generally, we need to switch from a philosophy of global trust to = a=20 philosophy of global distrust with local spaces of trust, exchanges and=20 services. All this can be more easily put together at CRC level than anywhere else,= =20 but it must eventually consistently expand everywhere and be the basis of= =20 the whole standardisation docntrine and model. We cannot continue to trus= t=20 the breakers and then try to catch them. We must distrust everyone who ha= s=20 not proven to be a friend. Do you invite home, lend your wallet and leave= =20 your kids to everyone you meet in the street? e-life is no different from= =20 real life. etc. This mail will probably be disregarded by most, opposed as a troll by som= e.=20 Nevertheless, this is what is to happen, this is the way we should work o= n=20 it, this what is happening. Obviously, this is a change in the meaning of= =20 "Internet" into "International Network" where "International" is an image= =20 of the granularity and of the diversity in shape, governance, requirement= s,=20 modes, protocols, etc. of the world digital ecosystem digital management=20 and convergence. I am not sure the IETF is ready for it: in addition to the architectural=20 expansion, it means for example the end of the international, multilingua= l,=20 and vernacular layer violation permitted by the ASCII default, and=20 therefore a probable IETF nexus shift at the end of the day. But this is=20 going to happen, with or without the IETF. I hope it is with it. jfc =20 _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf